Don Iago&#39;s Den of Arrogance

I think that it is important to hear what folks actually think of the project and concept as they understand it, because I really don't see a single issue on that main thread that doesn't warrant closer examination.

From:

By definition this endeavor supplants, or attempts to supplant, the EKU.

What mental gyrations could lead you to believe otherwise?

From:

Okay, imagine that college classes were audited by default. Let's call this the EKU.

Now imagine that being graded in classes was an option, but not a requirement. Let's call this the Lyceum.

You see how one can exist next to the other without interference? The only people it matters to is the student who's being graded, the teacher who has to do the grading (and grading isn't an issue within the Lyceum), and the administration which has to keep records and such.

Edited Date: 2008-05-01 01:14 am (UTC)

From:

There were definitely issues raised that warranted closer examination. There were also issues raised where no matter how I tried to explain it it didn't seem like I was getting through (though see a quck-and-dirty analogy I made up below). When you start getting 100 messages in under a day burning out (or at least needing a bit of breathing room) becomes a lot easier.

From:

(smiles) Thanks guy. I'd give you a hug or something, but, well, I read the sign. :)

From:

chrystie69.livejournal.com

ok I don't think I've been open to read your posts ab out this so what the heck is it?

From:

I think your analogy is a good one *from the student POV*, but the whole 'who approves the teachers, and how do teachers approve final projects' piece is a potential nightmare.

And I really don't think anyone doesn't understand that you got overwhelmed by the vehement response; I think folks were just a little disappointed that you asked folks to shut it down.

So - breathe. You certainly got folks talking and telling you what they thought - you can go through their answers and think about them when your ears stop bleeding. ;)

From:

No, I cannot see how one can coexist beside the other without interference - because ultimately they draw on the same limited pool of teachers, students, and weekends available on the calendar.

Grading v. auditing is utterly irrelevant.

From:

Teachers teach, students learn. Students contact a Registrar to let them know they attended a class, Registrar checks them off in a database. Student takes enough classes, has option to graduate if they a) teach, or b) do a project which they arrange with a Prefect (department head, classes organized into departments). They graduate, they get scroll or something. Woo.

How this interferes with the existing EKU system is something I'm failing to comprehend, which is one of the reasons we're calling it an "enhancement" to the EKU system. It's sure as heck not competition, or at least not by intent, and I haven't actually seen a good counter-argument as to why it would be yet.

From:

No...no no no no no...

I'm sorry, I'm just really burned-out right now...

Teachers teach at, say, Pennsic. At Pennsic they say "BTW, this class counts towards credit in the Lyceum." The class otherwise proceeds as it would ordinarily. That's all there is to it.

How does this interfere with the EKU? The same teacher could teach the class without it having anything to do with the Lyceum, and provided the students were interested they'd be there anyway. Right?

From:

I agree on your first point. That's something that's being discussed in committee.

It wasn't my intention to ask folks to shut it down, but a lot of the responses seemed somewhere between mildly and seriously caustic, and I needed breathing room that I wasn't getting. Too many people seemed to be interpreting things in the worst possible ways, and I can't cover 10 counter-arguments all on my own. Well, I could at my best, but I'm not at my best right now.

Sorry, being a bit of a drama queen. I do that sometimes.

The whole starting a sidebar on the Maunche list without asking me how I'd feel about it first _did_ really irk me.

From:

Oh - folks were getting steamy, that's for certain. I thought you did a pretty good job fielding it all, but you are most certainly entitled to have limits and reach them.

Folks talk; that's a given. You can't control who talks about a concept or a post, or where they talk about it, so blaming you for folks talking about and then telling you about it is just silly. I understand that you would be frustrated to have the project discussed on a big, but private list where you can not only not respond to it, but also can't even read the discussion, but, like I said, folks can and do talk, and we just don't have control over that, no matter how much we might like to.

From:

Hm. You don't think that there would be the potential for teachers who opted NOT to participate in the Lyceum system to be bumped from teaching rosters in favor of those who were?

From:

So, you'll only teach an Pennsic?

From:

"It's sure as heck not competition, or at least not by intent"

If you are teaching within the writ of the East Kingdom, you are competing with the EKU by design.

"I haven't actually seen a good counter-argument as to why it would be yet"

Mostly because you seem to have decided a priori that it isn't competition and thus reject without comprehension any argument that does not match your preconceived notion.

I'm not trying to be nasty, but that's really what it looks like from here.

From:

As I said before - if you don't want something discussed publicly, don't discuss it publicly.

Don't give me that guff about it being discussed on a 'private' list either. You released the idea into the wild and have no control or reasonable expectation of control over where it discussed subsequently.

From:

No more potential for that than there is for teachers to be shut-out because there are too many teachers and not enough slots in general.

From:

wyldemoon.livejournal.com

Well, the icon was for you. Give'em hell.

From:

The point I was trying to make was that at any event where teaching already occurs there can be Lyceum-sponsored classes, but there wouldn't be any Lyceum-specific events that anyone not part of the Lyceum couldn't attend as a standard A&S event.

The only difference for teachers and students, unless I'm missing something (possible) is that teachers may need to say that the class counts for Lyceum credit, and students would have to advise the Registrar that they took the class if they wanted said credit.

From:

It's entirely possible I'm being dense/obtuse here, so I'll just cut to the chase-

Could you please specify one way in which the Lyceum idea as I've outlined it specifically competes with the existing EKU structure?

From:

But I do have the right to wish that people had had the courtesy to ask me how I might feel about it being disseminated rather than just going ahead and doing so with apparently little regard for it.

Not that I feel like this whole situation has bit me in the ass or anything.

Oh wait, yes I do.

From:

"But I do have the right to wish that people had had the courtesy to ask me how I might feel about it being disseminated"

You have the right to wish, you don't have the right to get upset when people don't.

You proposed the idea publicly, you have _no_ further rights over where, when, or by who it is discussed. Period.

From:

"Could you please specify one way in which the Lyceum idea as I've outlined it specifically competes with the existing EKU structure?"

By offering a degree program within the writ of the East Kingdom. The issue of structure is meaningless.

From: