Whether 'tis Nobler...

[doniago]

In my attempts to try to explain the Lyceum to people I feel like I've just made a mess of things. People aren't getting it, quite possibly because I'm not explaining it well. But the worst part is that I feel like people don't _want_ to get it to some degree. I feel like they're reflexively assuming this is some sort of attempt to supplant the EKU when it's nothing of the sort. I've thought about deleting my posts on the SCA LJ Community, I've thought about just freezing them, and I've thought about leaving the community entirely.

And I've also thought about trying to fight the good fight and continue trying to fight what I perceive to be misapprehensions.

What really saddens me? I point out that someone (I have no idea who) started talking up my posting to the Maunche list, and people are more concerned with the fact that I know about this despite being a non-Maunche, and that someone told me about it, than they are with the fact that someone didn't even have the basic courtesy to say "Hey, would you mind if I brought up the Lyceum on the Maunche list to see how people there feel?" Would it have killed someone to do this?

Sigh.

I still think the Lyceum is worth pursuing. I think some people get it. I think more people _could_ get it. I think there's a real chance I'm explaining it badly. I think there's a real chance that some people just won't get it until they have a chance to experience it.

I...I just don't know anymore. But I think it deserves a chance to be tried, and I'll do what I can to give it that chance. Why? Because if it succeeds in what it's trying to do, it could be totally worth it.

As to the SCA Community issue...like I said, I'm tired of playing Sole Defender, but if there are people who genuinely like to hear what I have to say, maybe it's worth it in the end, right?

[Poll #1180482]

Comments

[doniago.livejournal.com]

Okay, just one question, and I'm sorry if I sound like a smartass here- considering that I'm not even certain I'm conveying an accurate impression of what the Lyceum is intended to be, isn't it entirely possble that people are reading what I'm saying and believing themselves to understand it, when in reality they don't? The fault may not lie with the one being spoken to so much as the one speaking.

I don't know whether the Lyceum's a good idea or not. A bunch of people seem to think it is, a bunch of people seem to think it isn't. And a bunch of people don't seem to feel very strongly either way, and I'm cool with that. That being said...if it can be done without causing problems, doesn't it deserve a chance? Or is it really such an utterly horrifying concept that it should be shut down without even seeing the light of day? If the Lyceum started to come into existence and Bad Things Happened, I'd be among the first to condemn it. And while the LJ...stuff...has been A Bad Thing for me personally, I don't think it necessarily reflects on what the consequences of creating this Lyceum might actually be. There's just so much room for miscommunication and misunderstanding here, I feel any final verdict should wait until it at least exists in some tangible form instead of a hypothetical one.

Wow, I've gone totally bi-polar. In Committee I'm the Devil's Advocate and Skeptic, yet outside the Committee I seem to be its Chief Defender. This is fubar'ed.

[noveldevice.livejournal.com]

If you feel that you are not able to explain the Lyceum, you should not make the attempt until you can. If you do not refrain from the attempt and people react to what you've said, you cannot criticize them and dismiss their reactions as uninformed simply because they have reacted to what you said. We are not mind-readers. We react to your words on the screen. If the sum of your explanation's parts do not equal the whole of the concept, whose fault is that? Ours, for failing to divine your intent? I think not.

I fail to see what value your scheme adds to the existing system for the users of that system. I am not alone in that. The reason that schemes which do not add value and do add cost should not be pursued is self-evident.

[doniago.livejournal.com]

At the time of my original posting I felt I could adequately explain the Lyceum, or update as needed. The subsequent feedback led me to consider that I may not be able to explain it as well as I would like and it deserves, at least in this medium. Face-to-face conversations have seemed to be more successful overall. I'll have a more informed opinion after Panteria, where there will be a roundtable discussion.

I don't recall criticizing or dismissing anyone's opinion without adding that the fault may have lain within me rather than them. If me acknowledging my own potential culpability doesn't satisfy you, I have to wonder what would at this point.

I appreciate your opinion on the Lyceum's potential value. Are you open to the idea that you might be wrong?

[noveldevice.livejournal.com]

In this instance, I consider the possibility that I am wrong about the scheme as you have described it to be slight.

You are again assuming that disagreement means that people don't understand; you are simply shifting the lack of understanding from the audience ("you just don't get it") to the speaker ("I just can't say it properly").

Every time you say "you think you understand but you don't" or "you don't want to get it" you are dismissing and criticizing people's opinions. Adding a sop does not change that.

[derekl1963.livejournal.com]

(golf clap)

[jducoeur]

That being said...if it can be done without causing problems, doesn't it deserve a chance? Or is it really such an utterly horrifying concept that it should be shut down without even seeing the light of day? If the Lyceum started to come into existence and Bad Things Happened, I'd be among the first to condemn it.

A fair point, but honestly -- there is every chance that it would get away from you. I mean, I'm speaking as someone who has been involved in creating a bunch of SCA institutions: The Letter of Dance, the Grand Council, the Carolingian Accademia della Danza, etc. None of them have ever wound up the way I originally intended them, and none have really wound up meaningfully under my control after very long. In the case of the Grand Council, the end result was *horrifying* to me -- exactly what I was trying to avoid and prevent in the beginning -- but I wound up with little influence over it. So your willingness to condemn it if it proves to be a bad idea doesn't entirely comfort me: it's rarely the creators who turn these things into bureaucracies.

I'll admit, I'm pretty against it, because it looks to me like it's introducing a measure of hassle with no clear advantage over lower-hassle methods. There are probably some genuine needs, but I suspect there are less-structured ways to meet those needs, that are less likely to get out of control. In general, the more structured something in the SCA is, the more likely it is to *become* official (whether the creators intended that or not), and the more likely it is to keep on accumulating rules, regulations and bureaucracy. Keep in mind, nearly every heavyweight SCA structure started as something "unofficial". Heck, some of the Kingdom's awards were originally supposed to be unofficial. (Eg, the Queen's Honor of Distinction, which was supposed to be Elspeth's *personal* token, specifically in lieu of something official. Subsequent royalty decided to make it official anyway. That's how these things typically work.)

So I'm pretty suspicious of it. I'm sure you're all well-intentioned, but I'd rather see lighter-weight personal-level options pursued instead: they're less likely to turn into the tail wagging the dog...